GCSL - Ranks and Game Results Reporting

[Goshawk Heron]

(The prefix of "GCSL" is being used to denote discussions specific to the Go Center of Second Life)

This thread is around ideas for the best way to handle game results reporting.

I'm not one to put a big emphasis on ranks, and I hope that this discussion doesn't devolve into a debate on the value of ranks. But we do have ranks, and I think for good reason: most people want to have a general idea of the relative strength of another player before they pair up for a game - a lopsided blowout isn't fun or educational for either player. At least for this reason, ranks should be kept at least somewhat meaningful.

Originally, I guess the main tracking method was for players to just IM Keiju Shore with the game results. He was compiling them and coming up with ranks. But I don't think most members even know this, much less use it.

So my main question is what method should we be using and how should we let players know what it is?

[Goshawk Heron]

I'll start with a thought... I'm wondering if we should either go more formal, or just totally informal.

The formal version would be to have the boards actually track the game results. Maybe they could be enhanced to send a note card to someone every time a game is finalized. (This might be combined with the [oft-requested] feature of having the boards support .sgf files - maybe these could be delivered as a note card to each participant and whoever's tracking games.)

The information version would be to just have everyone self-report. Maybe we'd standardize on KGS ranks, with a mapping from other ranking systems. This might get us close enough for a club atmosphere, without requiring a big infrastructure around it.

[Tenuki Runo]

Originally Posted by Goshawk Heron

I'll start with a thought... I'm wondering if we should either go more formal, or just totally informal.

I think this depends on the size of the group. For small groups, where most people know each other, informal ranks work well. Current system is sufficient. For larger groups, something more formal is better. But I see no chance of implementing a strict system without first addressing behavioral and abuse issues, like escaping, sandbagging, and others nasty things plaguing the existing servers. For now, informal system workd well.

[Goshawk Heron]

Originally Posted by Tenuki Runo

...For small groups, where most people know each other, informal ranks work well. Current system is sufficient.

The reason I bring it up, though, is that the current system isn't actually informal - it's sort of semi-formal, and most members don't know the details of it.

For one thing, there are two sources of ranks - one you get from joining the "Game of Go" group (the one that shows up over your head) and one that shows up on the rank board at the playing pavillion.

For the title that shows over your head, everyone gets "Go Player" when they join the group, but there're also versions like "Go Player (5-1 kyu)". It says you get these by talking with the group owners, but I haven't done it so I don't know if they have any requirements for putting you in a category, or if they try to keep this title in sync with the rank board.

On the ratings board, a player gives a self-estimate when they initially touch the board, down to a range (it will show something like "6k ~ 4k"). But the board will also show a solid rank like "6k*", and the way you get a solid rank is by sending game results to Keiju - at least it was last I heard.

Almost nobody knows even this much, though, so at least I think this information should be posted somewhere so that members know how it works. Without that, I feel in a quandry: I've got a solid rank on the board, and I would like it to keep up with my real strength as I improve, but I feel uncomfortable reporting game results that my opponents probably didn't even know would be officially recorded (plus, if I were dishonest I guess I could just report my wins - it's unlikely anyone else will report my losses).

But also this is why I suggested that we have a discussion around whether to stay with this hybrid system, or just decide to go totally informal or totally formal.

[Zarf]

First and foremost, while Keiju and I spent some time designing the current system, we are certainly open to improvements.

The boards at the Go Center automatically report game results to Keiju and I. Keiju updates the "club rank" based on those games. If you play a game with someone who hasn't opted into the ranking system, I think Keiju ignores it. If someone is in the system, but chooses not to show a rank, then I think Keiju keeps track of it, but it doesn't display.

There is a notecard full of info if you touch the membership board, and a small amount of text on the posters near the entrance. Editing help more than welcome.

The ranks that are group role titles from the "The Game of Go" group should probably go away. You can't have enough roles in a group to have a really accurate set of ranks, and the only way to change ranks is to ask an officer of the group. This probably isn't workable. Furthermore, because of those titles, we are out of roles in the group, which leads to a few other problems. So, my thought is to remove those entirely and leave members with "Go Player" as the only group role title.

[Goshawk Heron]

Thanks for filling in the details, Zarf. When I talked with Keiju about it, I didn't get the part about the boards auto-reporting. Nor did I remember about getting the notecard upon touching the rank board - I only remember it bringing up the estimation menu.

The in-pavillion rank system seems pretty set, then, so long as you and Keiju don't mind the overhead of keeping up with the results reporting (and, I presume, manually tranferring the ranks to the "members" page of the web site, which is another source of ranks I forgot to mention in my previous summary).

With that in place, I agree with you about stopping the use of the "Game of Go" group roles to show rank. I bet the slots on this list could be used for other things (though maybe we can still keep "Go Master" as one - gives me something to aspire to ), and it would decrease the overhead/confusion.

[Zarf]

The ratings on the web site are the same as those in the pavillion. The reason I think you didn't get the notecard is that you signed up before I put that feature in. You can touch it now and get it.

[MacNala]

Originally Posted by Zarf

The ratings on the web site are the same as those in the pavillion. The reason I think you didn't get the notecard is that you signed up before I put that feature in. You can touch it now and get it.

A bit late in replying but "touch what?"

[LP Jent]

GCSL is the go center, in Second Life.

Second life is a visual multi user, user driven content environment.

Touch is 'click'.

There's a sign there to touch to get your rank set.

Hope that helps.

LP