Joseki question

[phoboid]

Look a the following joseki:



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
I was wondering why white won't play at a instead of 8.
8 seems to me overly defensive (which is probably justified, I'm simply too weak to see why )

[HKA]

Originally Posted by phoboid

Look a the following joseki:



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
I was wondering why white won't play at a instead of 8.
8 seems to me overly defensive (which is probably justified, I'm simply too weak to see why )

This is the flaw in blindly following joseki - why indeed!

In fact, 8 is better because a move below 3 has no impact, while, with your suggestion, there is immediately bad aji inside.

Additionally, white can play underneath 3 in this situation, and black really cannot hane - so 8 is the better play.

[Bill Spight]

Originally Posted by phoboid

Look a the following joseki:



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
I was wondering why white won't play at a instead of 8.
8 seems to me overly defensive (which is probably justified, I'm simply too weak to see why )

Show Diagram Code[go] Bad aji
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . b . 8 a . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Later, "Ba" threatens to play at "b".



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 8 . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 9 . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Upon further reflection, B9 looks good in this variation.

[shapenaji]

Originally Posted by phoboid

Look a the following joseki:



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
I was wondering why white won't play at a instead of 8.
8 seems to me overly defensive (which is probably justified, I'm simply too weak to see why )

I concur with HKA, I would also add that later on in this position



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 . . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . a . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
"a is a possibility

[Tommie]

Originally Posted by phoboid

Look a the following joseki:


Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a . . . . . .
$$|. . 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code I was wondering why white won't play at a instead of 8.

You are suggesting this WC


Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . W . . . . . .
$$|. . O O . O . B . . . . .
$$|. . X X X b . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Show Diagram Code[go]
[font=courier]$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . m , . . . . . . . . .
[/font][/go]Hide Diagram Code
Usually this Joseki is intiated by BC,
(only) when Black has a stone around m.

White would like to move into the center/moyo with a move b.



Show Diagram Code[go]
[font=courier]$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . m , . . . . . . . . .


Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . W . . . . . .
$$|. . O O k O i B . . . . .
$$|. . X X X 1 h . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]Hide Diagram Code[/go]Hide Diagram Code
However, in your suggested variant,
Black simply blocks at B1 and also the hane H is impossible,
because it induces the black cut i which also enables the atari threat k.



Show Diagram Code[go]
[font=courier]$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . m , . . . . . . . . .



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . W . . . . . .
$$|. . O O . O 2 B . . . . .
$$|. . X X X 1 3 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]Hide Diagram Code[/go]Hide Diagram Code
[/font]If White prevents this,
she would create bad shape.



Show Diagram Code[go]
[font=courier]$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . m , . . . . . . . . .


Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . p . W 1 . . . . .
$$|. . O O . O . B . . . . .
$$|. . X X X b . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]Hide Diagram Code[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Alternatively, Black could also block here,
aiming for the peep p.
[/font]



Show Diagram Code[go]
[font=courier]$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . m , . . . . . . . . .


Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . p . W 1 . . . . .
$$|. . O O . O . B . . . . .
$$|. . X X X 2 s . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 3 t . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]Hide Diagram Code[/go]Hide Diagram Code
[/font]If White moves out with W2, she still keeps the weakness p,
Afterwards, hane T seems impossible and S is bad shape.

[/font]

Show Diagram Code[go]
$$------------------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . 8 a e g . . . .
$$|. x 4 6 . 2 . 3 f i . . .
$$|. . 5 1 7 . j . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . 9 . . . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

OTOH, the standard shape (yeah, this is a shape,
not only a joseki to be learned),
enables eye shape with e-f-g (if Black has haned and taken eye-shape space at x)
OR
- the invasion at i, OR
- the (a little bit blunt) cut starting with j.

[Tommie]

So many posts appeared faster?